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Discussion Starter #1
Just joined the community, so hello, this is my 1st & maybe last question?!
Just bought a new gti & love it, being an Essex boy I’m maybe looking at getting a remap/Duno run with SA, & I Have read many spirited posts on the subject. So SA quote a +20 bhp & +40 torque, which are around +20% on stock. So my question is does anyone know what the clutch is rated as & is there a simple rating that tells me the remap numbers don’t exceed the recommended load? Cheers.
 

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I don’t know about the clutch, but the 02T gearbox is rated by design to transmit a maximum torque of 200NM, so already at the manufacturers specified limit in standard form.

Hope this helps.
 

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Thanks........That’s interesting & a facor when considering upping the power. Makes you wonder how big a factor of safety VW are holding back, bit like a structural engineer & bridge calculations, as you figure they surely didn’t build a gti that many peeps would be looking to modify but with a gear box rated at the upper limit of the original engine loads. Have to keep looking for experiences of people with modded cars & whether their gearboxes are dropping out........are they?
 

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I can’t really help with your last question, but from my understanding, the 02T is a great design, and more than fit for purpose, with its ultra-lightweight design in terms of materials, construction and engineering.

Whilst I appreciate that a manufacturer is obliged to quantify a specified maximum torque, it really isn’t the determining factor. That would be the rate of change of torque (3rd derivative), otherwise known as “jerk”, which will obviously be limited by minimising the maximum torque.

Having familiarised myself with the ingenious design of this particular gearbox quite some time ago, I would sugggest that if anything, it’s achilies heel would not be its vulnerability to the jerk produced by the engine, but that produced by suddenly repeated loss and gain of traction of one of the roadwheels. In order to mitigate the potential damage during such situations and much to the dismay of some owners, VW have equipped the UP! GTI with an electronic stability control system which very effectively dampens the rate of change of applied torque (...read “significantly reduces the jerk“) which would otherwise be applied to the somewhat vulnerable 02T’s hollow output shaft during moments of wheel spin. Wheelspin per-se wouldn’t be such an issue, but when a wheel rapidly and repeatedly loses and gains traction, as would be the case when exiting from a tight bend under hard acceleration, the jerk is effectively many times that produced by the engine and is of course transmitted through the differential.

Unfortunately, the the majority of car owners aren’t technically minded enough to appreciate either the ingenious design of the 02T, or its technical limitations, and so they view the electronic stability control as nothing other than an unjustified hindrance to their driving pleasure, which whilst I agree with from a driving perspective, it’s there for good reason.

Perhaps those who have chosen to invest their own funds in what is undoubtedly a fantastic little car may appreciate the above explanation, although I would expect that this will be almost meaningless to the great number who have subscribed to the now commonplace PCH/PCP schemes and for whom longevity isn’t a consideration.

As always, just my opinion ...

J.

P.S. Further reading attached for those who may be interested.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Jacara, youve indeed blown my head off with that, but for a simple homo sapien like me, with a tuning house telling me torque would be increased from 200-240, will this exceed the VW rating? As I see Danbo has a Dyno after mapping showing 145 hp & 170 torque, so why would they quote me 240 torque, Is this theoretical vs actual?
 

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The gearbox won't drop out. The torque rating is complicated, as it's really about a typical max torque estimated for a population of gearboxes, and usage patterns. That is to say, they vary, so 200Nm is not a hard and fast number.

There are two issues. One is that bearing wear increases roughly in proportion with the average torque passing the the box. So someone with a stock engine who always drives about at max torque will wear the box faster than someone who has modded the engine to get say, 20-30Nm more, but who only guns it occasionally.

The other issue is that going much above the rated torque may literally break gear teeth. This is where you a statistical variation between boxes, as a tiny manufacturing difference or slight flaw in hardening is normal, but can mean you get unlucky!

In the end, if you stay modest, you'll be fine. A remap that widens the torque curve is better that one that increases only the peak torque in a narrow band...

Always best to tell your insurer too, for obvious reasons explained often on the forum.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks, the light bulb in my head is now glowing dimly & your last bit about a nice wide curve hit the mark, thought you was talking bout women for a mo!
 

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I can’t really help with your last question, but from my understanding, the 02T is a great design, and more than fit for purpose, with its ultra-lightweight design in terms of materials, construction and engineering.

Whilst I appreciate that a manufacturer is obliged to quantify a specified maximum torque, it really isn’t the determining factor. That would be the rate of change of torque (3rd derivative), otherwise known as “jerk”, which will obviously be limited by minimising the maximum torque.

Having familiarised myself with the ingenious design of this particular gearbox quite some time ago, I would sugggest that if anything, it’s achilies heel would not be its vulnerability to the jerk produced by the engine, but that produced by suddenly repeated loss and gain of traction of one of the roadwheels. In order to mitigate the potential damage during such situations and much to the dismay of some owners, VW have equipped the UP! GTI with an electronic stability control system which very effectively dampens the rate of change of applied torque (...read “significantly reduces the jerk“) which would otherwise be applied to the somewhat vulnerable 02T’s hollow output shaft during moments of wheel spin. Wheelspin per-se wouldn’t be such an issue, but when a wheel rapidly and repeatedly loses and gains traction, as would be the case when exiting from a tight bend under hard acceleration, the jerk is effectively many times that produced by the engine and is of course transmitted through the differential.

Unfortunately, the the majority of car owners aren’t technically minded enough to appreciate either the ingenious design of the 02T, or its technical limitations, and so they view the electronic stability control as nothing other than an unjustified hindrance to their driving pleasure, which whilst I agree with from a driving perspective, it’s there for good reason.

Perhaps those who have chosen to invest their own funds in what is undoubtedly a fantastic little car may appreciate the above explanation, although I would expect that this will be almost meaningless to the great number who have subscribed to the now commonplace PCH/PCP schemes and for whom longevity isn’t a consideration.

As always, just my opinion ...

J.

P.S. Further reading attached for those who may be interested.
Excellent post and most interesting, love a good set of drawings to look at.

You wouldn’t happen to have something similar regarding the engine would you? Can’t beat a nice set of sections/cutaways.
 

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Excellent post and most interesting, love a good set of drawings to look at.

You wouldn’t happen to have something similar regarding the engine would you? Can’t beat a nice set of sections/cutaways.

Did you have a go at the quiz at the end of the pdf ?
Some very good info about our gear box .
Thanks Jacara .
 

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Excellent post and most interesting, love a good set of drawings to look at.

You wouldn’t happen to have something similar regarding the engine would you? Can’t beat a nice set of sections/cutaways.
That's an excellent document. I was going to ask the same thing.
 

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Excellent post and most interesting, love a good set of drawings to look at.

You wouldn’t happen to have something similar regarding the engine would you? Can’t beat a nice set of sections/cutaways.

That's an excellent document. I was going to ask the same thing.
Thanks !

No problem ... Attached !
 

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Love info in this form and level of detail.

Didn’t know for instance the engine has a vane oil pump thought they were all still concentric.
 
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Jacara, would you happen to have any instruction docs on how to activate the drive away/anti hi jack door locking? I know its done via VAG COM. My local dealer says it cant be done on the UP GTI. I know it can and have sent 4 emails to the service dept in the last 2 weeks and they have ignored all of them.
I even emailed Marshall VW who i know have activated this function and asked if they can tell me how its done so i can pass this on to my local dealer.
At least Marshall had the courtesy to reply,but they said it cant be done on the UP GTI. Can you believe that ASH.
I give up. I will just press the locking button myself.
 

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I spoke to JBS recently who do Stage 1 & 2 remaps for the UP GTI and I was enquiring about upgrading my clutch if I had a very high BHP/Torque. They have a test model GTI with 185BHP and a standard clutch which gives no problems apparently!
 

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That’s monster, did they say how long it’s been running/mileage on that set up?
I suppose as JBS have mapped previous gtis you sort of figure they would have had feedback from customers if they were encountering any issues.
 

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Jacara, would you happen to have any instruction docs on how to activate the drive away/anti hi jack door locking? I know its done via VAG COM. My local dealer says it cant be done on the UP GTI. I know it can and have sent 4 emails to the service dept in the last 2 weeks and they have ignored all of them.
I even emailed Marshall VW who i know have activated this function and asked if they can tell me how its done so i can pass this on to my local dealer.
At least Marshall had the courtesy to reply,but they said it cant be done on the UP GTI. Can you believe that ASH.
I give up. I will just press the locking button myself.
Sorry, I don’t, as there’s no official documentation published for this, although if I’m not mistaken, there are a number of forum members equipped with the tools and basic knowledge to do this and will be able to advise.

I understand that some have done this simple procedure by themselves and others had their dealer do it, in some cases free of charge during a service visit.

Regarding your own frustrating responses from the VW dealers, having asked the same question when mine had its first service, to me, their message is clear ... They’re simply not interested. The service manager told me that whilst they can do it on other cars within the VW range, they don’t have the equipment necessary to do it on the UP!

Knowing already that it would be a complete waste of time and energy, I stopped short of asking him how, as an authorised main dealer they are able to offer a competitive, trustworthy service if they don’t even have the correct diagnostic equipment that I understand can be sourced from Ebay for circa £20.
 

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At least Marshall had the courtesy to reply,but they said it cant be done on the UP GTI. Can you believe that ASH.
I give up. I will just press the locking button myself.
Interesting. I wonder what witchcraft they used on my car 3 weeks ago to be able to do what can’t be done.
 
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