[Charliefarlie]

It's quick, but so is everything it's up against but the Fiesta ST and Cooper S are also much better steers. A hot hatch, almost by definition, needs to be fun. If it fails on that, it fails. Did you just drive one in isolation or did you take anything else out? And are you talking about the current one or the previous one as I can't imagine finding a current one unmolested is difficult?

The car I put the deposit on was a 65 plate car.... So not exactly near new. My budget would not allow the latest cars as it was a cash budget. No PCPs or finance for me. I’d rather drive a banger than get into debt.
Fiesta ST is arguably and certainly regarded by the motoring press as a superior car but it was a Polo I wanted. Fiesta is dreadful inside and well........ Well everyone’s got one. I’ve had Coopers Ss in the past. Had 2 both were troublesome so I wouldn’t not give one a second look.

 

[freemansteve]

All round, we're better off with our various Up!s/Citigos/Miis, at this point of economic peril, I'd say!

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

The car I put the deposit on was a 65 plate car.... So not exactly near new. My budget would not allow the latest cars as it was a cash budget. No PCPs or finance for me. I’d rather drive a banger than get into debt.
Fiesta ST is arguably and certainly regarded by the motoring press as a superior car but it was a Polo I wanted. Fiesta is dreadful inside and well........ Well everyone’s got one. I’ve had Coopers Ss in the past. Had 2 both were troublesome so I wouldn’t not give one a second look.

Depends what era you're looking at. I've had all three eras of Cooper S and am on my second F56, both of which I've had brand new. My 54 plate R53 and 57 plate R56 which I bought outright approved used for quite high sums of money at the time were money pits towards the ends of their lives despite me loving the R53, but the F series cars have BMW engines (rather than previous Dodge and PSA units which were chronic), but plus I've PCP'd them at very low prices and don't own their problems.

Mk 8 Fiesta is very good inside whereas latest Polo GTI has taken a backward step in quality. I'd say it is still better than the Fiesta, but you wouldn't feel as shortchanged as between the previous versions of both cars. Mk 7 Fiesta ST is an outrageously good car though overall, uncomplicated cheap to repair and getting cheap to buy.

Wise mindset to have with not getting in debt. But just remember the dearer the car you buy outright the more expensive its problems are to fix and they will all be your financial responsibility. Internal Combustion Engines seems to have a worse shelf life than ever these days - when buying anything of any value now, I just look to lease or PCP within my budget as at least I have a ceiling on my costs. Plus I'm getting on and finance isn't a way of getting into debt, it's just a different way of spending my accrued money. But whatever you do, stick to your budget and if you're going to own something complicated outright, make sure you've built in some spare cash.

You can quite easily end up with a car worth £6,000 and a repair bill for half of that, as a car that was once £30,000 still has repair bills associated with such a piece of kit. I don't think I'd trust anything European as an older used car - had my fingers burnt and know too many other people who have and they haven't made bad choices, things are just mechanically flaky by design I think. Cars are just becoming a bit disposable to the benefit of no-one, except manufacturers. But yes, this is all going rather off topic.

With regard to the 2010-2017 Polo GTI, you want to go for the later 1.8 rather than the 1.4 TSI turbocharged and supercharged unit that was only available as a DSG. That engine had a reputation for being quite an oilburner even as a youngster, plus I knew someone who bought a 9 month old one from his local VW dealer and it would frequently give him first as he pulled out of a junction and then just give him a boxful of neutrals rather than go into second and leave him stranded, to the point where he was frightened to drive it. His dealer refused to acknowledge there was a problem and subsequently wouldn't look at it without the threat of a big outlay if they looked at it and found nothing. That's an individual story and I don't know how common it was, but I know it was an issue that was reported online. Either way, I don't think it was the best incarnation of the DSG 'box back then. I can't remember what happened, but I remember he offloaded it pretty sharpish. Any car can be a dud, but I think that era Polo GTI is a bit of a shed, and the later manual 1.8 is a better bet.

You pays your money, you takes your choice. Loads of people have zero trouble with stuff. Just depends if Lady Luck is smiling on you. But if a risk averse approach ends up with you getting stung, you can't kick yourself. If I ignored the warning signs and got bitten, I would be found rocking in the corner with my head in my knees. If I could still get my head down to my knees.

 

[freemansteve]

Same feelings here. Even though we are wandering off-topic...

While I could go and buy a new 911 Turbo for cash tomorrow morning, I - that is "we" at home - think the time is wrong. Maybe the time is gone, or probably for the next 5 years at least... By which time, I will have far less interest in how fast/flash/desirable a car is...

I don't even have a GTi - just a 75PS Citigo. I'd have liked a GTi, as a petrol-head who has had some fab cars, motorbikes, and having built some very fun cars, but I couldn't see what the the extra cost really gave me, nice as a GTi is. And by extension, that would apply to a Polo GTi, a Golf GTi, an M3, and right up to the utterly unusable, like Ferrari, McLaren.... Unless you can and do still book regular track days, the driving scene is not what is was....

I watch Wheeler Dealers and Fast N Loud, and the former recently featured an Escort Cosworth - with a triple rear wing. What a joke these days - who would not feel a bit of dick in Tesco's car park? OK, a classic Alfa, or similar, I do get. I suppose you could take off the exhaust on the Ford and wake people up at 2am for unfathomable reasons....

This thread seems to be about minor cosmetics on a bargain-basement small car.... I'd just say buy any Up!/Citigo/Mii that is not too old, in budget, and you will not only save money over the life of the thing, but will also drive with a grin. I do, and I'm pretty crusty and hard to impress.....

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

Same feelings here. Even though we are wandering off-topic...

While I could go and buy a new 911 Turbo for cash tomorrow morning, I - that is "we" at home - think the time is wrong. Maybe the time is gone, but probably for the next 5 years at least... By which time, I will have far less interest in how fast/flash/desirable a car is...

I don't even have a GTi - just a 75PS Citigo. I'd have liked a GTi, as a petrol-head who has had some fab cars, motorbikes, and having built some very fun cars, but I couldn't see what the the extra 50% of cost really gave me, nice as a GTi is. And by extension, that would apply to a Polo GTi, a Golf GTi, an M3, and right up to the utterly unusable, like Ferrari, McLaren.... Unless you can and do still book regular track days, the driving scene is not what is was....

I watch Wheeler Dealers and Fast N Loud, and the former recently featured an Escort Cosworth - with a triple rear wing. What a joke these days - who would not feel a bit of dick in Tesco's car park? OK, a classic Alfa, or similar, I do get. I suppose you could take off the exhaust on the Ford and wake people up at 2am for unfathomable reasons....

This thread seems to be about minor cosmetics on a bargain-basement small car.... I'd just say buy any Up!/Citigo/Mii that is not to old, in budget, and you will not only save money over the life of the thing, but will also drive with a grin. I do, and I'm pretty crusty and hard to impress.....

Yep my descent into used MINIs from new six-pot BMs 12 years ago was fairly painless, and now my descent (cash value and horsepower wise - I appreciate there are subjective measures too) into a new Up GTI from a new Cooper S will be less so, should it happen. It matters less with each passing day, especially since I'm barely driving and being financially secure is a much nicer feeling than a tasty car. Especially if it's largely going to be ornamental. It's easy to judge, though - although it's not important to me now, it was once and for some people it still will be. I was that soldier, but I'm just not now.

 

[Sean66]

I like the Polo GTI.....Properly quick great seats in fact I had a deposit on one before buying the wee Up..... But when the car was hooked up to an all systems reader it showed the car had been clocked.
Buying a Polo GTI that is unmolested is actually quite hard. My budget (cash not PCP) allowed cars around 5 years old.
So I bought this wee Up much newer and lower miles for the same money. Whether I will find the Up as entertaining as the far more powerful Polo is yet to be decided.

A Parker’s track test with the UpGti, Polo GTi and golf GTI concluded the Golf was fastest followed by the Polo with the UP slowest .
How ever the UP GTI was the most fun to drive. Also with it being massively cheaper to buy and run IMHO makes it a good choice .

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

A Parker’s track test with the UpGti, Polo GTi and golf GTI concluded the Golf was fastest followed by the Polo with the UP slowest .
How ever the UP GTI was the most fun to drive. Also with it being massively cheaper to buy and run IMHO makes it a good choice .

But that is within the rather tight - and arguably unrewarding - confines of only VW cars. Like I say, the Polo is not on a par with others in its class. It is still possible to be faster and more fun, it's just the Polo isn't a good ambassador for that notion. The Up GTI also enjoys the luxury of no natural predators. I'm not saying the Up GTI isn't excellent, just that this could simply highlight what a bad car the Polo GTI is and it's a rather pointless and academic VW centric test - just who is considering all three? There isn't even really any GTI lineage there as where the Polo and Golf are genuinely quite pacey, the Up GTI has almost had its potential pace engineered out and has a different ethos.

 

[TEST DRIVER]

With so many MINIS on the road i cant understand why people say they are unreliable. Surely there would be an outcry if all the owners had problem cars. Perhaps they are talking about the older models, not the latest new MINIS.

I will probably look to change my UP GTI in 2024. I do fancy a Mazda MX5 soft top, but i do not want another manual. I only want automatics. Its only available on the top of the range RF and too expensive.

I will have a look at the POLO GTI auto and even the GOLF GTI auto, but if you can get a MINI COOPER auto at one year old for the same price as the POLO GTI auto i would prefer the MINI.

My next car after that in 2029 ( yes forward planning ) which will probably be my last car before i give up driving, could be something different like a BMW 320 auto or a Jaguar XE auto. As an OAP i would like comfort.

If the price comes down a lot i could look at an electric car in 2029. All electric cars are automatic so perhaps a MINI E, HONDA E, RENAULT ZOE or SMART FOR TWO E.

Then again with the low mileage i do, i could keep my UP GTI for many years as my final car until i give up driving. At the moment i am enjoying my UP GTI. I have had it for 6 months and only done 400 miles in it, so it looks like it will do 1000 miles a year or less just like my SMART did, so i could keep it and look after it for the next 10 to 20 years.I have plenty of time to decide, so we shall see.

 

[tootes]

Same feelings here. Even though we are wandering off-topic...

While I could go and buy a new 911 Turbo for cash tomorrow morning, I - that is "we" at home - think the time is wrong. Maybe the time is gone, or probably for the next 5 years at least... By which time, I will have far less interest in how fast/flash/desirable a car is...

I don't even have a GTi - just a 75PS Citigo. I'd have liked a GTi, as a petrol-head who has had some fab cars, motorbikes, and having built some very fun cars, but I couldn't see what the the extra cost really gave me, nice as a GTi is. And by extension, that would apply to a Polo GTi, a Golf GTi, an M3, and right up to the utterly unusable, like Ferrari, McLaren.... Unless you can and do still book regular track days, the driving scene is not what is was....
...

Its a fun topic to discuss, even if it is off topic.

My take on the two above - I think there is a lot of people who see a new 911t as silly quite simply because for similar money you can buy an epic and more engaging 911 (or classic BMW for that matter) and not lose so much money on it. That said they still sell loads of them.

As for the driving scene... it depends.. car culture may have changed but the actual driving hasn't much. I have been driving the same roads in Scotland for 20 years now, initially as road trip tourist, now as a local - they really haven't changed much. I had to travel a bit this week for work and have had a couple of magic drives - The Up is up on snow as it turns out!
Covid aside, epic driving for southerners is as simple as pointing the car up the M6 for 3-4 hours then turning off into the hills! I used to do it all the time when I lived in London and Manchester.

 

[tootes]

I did 230k in two new Minis over six years and the only problem I had was 1*DPF which was fixed quickly under warranty. The light came on as I was passing a dealer. I dropped it off, they gave me a hire car and then delivered my back to me a couple of days later. Amazing reliability.

I do know someone who had trouble with the Cooper S death rattle though!

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

With so many MINIS on the road i cant understand why people say they are unreliable. Surely there would be an outcry if all the owners had problem cars. Perhaps they are talking about the older models, not the latest new MINIS.

I will probably look to change my UP GTI in 2024. I do fancy a Mazda MX5 soft top, but i do not want another manual. I only want automatics. Its only available on the top of the range RF and too expensive.

I will have a look at the POLO GTI auto and even the GOLF GTI auto, but if you can get a MINI COOPER auto at one year old for the same price as the POLO GTI auto i would prefer the MINI.

My next car after that in 2029 ( yes forward planning ) which will probably be my last car before i give up driving, could be something different like a BMW 320 auto or a Jaguar XE auto. As an OAP i would like comfort.

If the price comes down a lot i could look at an electric car in 2029. All electric cars are automatic so perhaps a MINI E, HONDA E, RENAULT ZOE or SMART FOR TWO E.

Then again with the low mileage i do, i could keep my UP GTI for many years as my final car until i give up driving. At the moment i am enjoying my UP GTI. I have had it for 6 months and only done 400 miles in it, so it looks like it will do 1000 miles a year or less just like my SMART did, so i could keep it and look after it for the next 10 to 20 years.I have plenty of time to decide, so we shall see.

The MX-5 auto is a rough old 'box because the manual in it is so peachy. The MINIs I think all now have dual clutch set-ups but I had a Clubman Auto courtesy car recently and that felt more like a torque converter, but because the Clubman is more 1-series underneath than Mini, maybe it has a different 'box. I could look but I would rather make ill-informed hypotheses!

The R53 MINI 2001-2007 had many problems across the car rather than centred around the Dodge/Tritec supercharged unit which was just a bit rough diamond rather than unreliable (and it was very characterful once it has a supercharger on!) but they weren't necessarily that severe in their youth and a lot of them just got bad as they got older. The R56, however, which ran from 2007 to 2014 with the Peugeot co-developed 1.6 turbo that was also in the Peugeot 207 GTI (try find one of those now if you're an archaeologist) was a terribly unreliable engine and renowned for it. Also beset with timing chain issues. I think mine had four recalls on its chain. Also, in its old age it drank oil like a vehicular alcoholic - a one way trip to London in one go from Cheshire would require a litre of before I came back up. That was fairly "normal" usage as they got older. Models built after 2010/2011 had different componentry and they sorted a lot of it. But trust me, there was an outcry. But once a car is five or six years old, car manufacturers have an odd deafness if you're not in their extended warranty scheme!

But the 2014 on model, to be fair, I have found to be extremely solid. Although both of my F56s have been from brand new, although that can often be where you'll get problems and a two year old car has often had them sorted. The forums are littered with people who haven't had a good time with F56s, so there are problems but forums are a bit biased and can make problems look more common than they are as people tend to only be on them when they need help rather than to say what a great car they have! If I was putting my faith in an older motor now, I'd probably not just go Japanese for the first time, I'd probably only go Mazda.

But when a new Up GTI is leasable at the prices being advertised at the moment (post partial Brexit resolution), it seems madness not to go new and have all your problems covered by a manufacturer's warranty. Unless you really specifically want something special. This time I'm more excited about the money I'm going to save rather than necessarily what I'm getting - the latter is almost incidental! Within reason anyway, I'm still limiting myself to something from a five car choice - it's just normally I have my precise spec on one car known for about a year in advance. This time, I'm very "meh". If they did an Up GTI in beige with a brown tweed interior and it was cheaper I'd probably have it.

A Cooper is a lot slower than a Polo GTI, if you want performance parity you'll need to go Cooper S.

 

[freemansteve]

Most cars are pretty reliable and well-made these days - especially the ones of German/Japanese design or manufacture (including those not necessarily built in Germany or Japan). Ask your dads about cars from 40-50 years ago! Mind you, it is annoying if you a re stuck with an annoying-hard-find-problem or a huge bill!

Popular, and smaller cars, especially the relatively simple ones, are really not that expensive to own and run - there's not much point picking on a model (which may have spanned many model versions) such as a Fiesta or Mini or Up or whatever and making a general statement about comparative reliability - reliability is now good enough for it to not be a factor for most people's buying decisions, even if all the cars in posts above have "quirks".

I'm just happy I bought the one I did (Citigo) - it's saving me a ton of money and it's great to drive.

As for cosmetic changes for 2021 on the GTi, most are minor and can often be altered if needs be. Or lived with. Cosmetic fiddling is a sure sign a car is in its twilight, so I'm just glad you can still buy them...

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

I did 230k in two new Minis over six years and the only problem I had was 1*DPF which was fixed quickly under warranty. The light came on as I was passing a dealer. I dropped it off, they gave me a hire car and then delivered my back to me a couple of days later. Amazing reliability.

I do know someone who had trouble with the Cooper S death rattle though!

Which era - R53, R56, or F56? My two F56s from new have been dreams, but my R models were dogs reliability wise, but so sweet when they were running it kept me hooked. I feel I've finally been rewarded for my insane loyalty with how good the Fs are. I still think that even on a car renowned for being unreliable, percentage wise, more people will have a trouble-free experience. It's just those R cars, as unreliable cars go were pretty unreliable and renowned for it. And they were badly packaged and practically anything on them was expensive to fix due to everything having to come out.

I'd happily have another one - it's a price decision this time though. I have to say the dealer I got my current one from one rotten as **** but cheap, but the dealer I've found to sort a few things out on it has been excellent as the PDI hadn't been done correctly and the rev matching was off. Luckily because it was my second F56 I knew it wasn't right - had it been my first, I'd still be going through the windscreen on third to second thinking I just couldn't drive any more.

 

[TEST DRIVER]

The MX-5 auto is a rough old 'box because the manual in it is so peachy. The MINIs I think all now have dual clutch set-ups but I had a Clubman Auto courtesy car recently and that felt more like a torque converter, but because the Clubman is more 1-series underneath than Mini, maybe it has a different 'box. I could look but I would rather make ill-informed hypotheses!

The R53 MINI 2001-2007 had many problems across the car rather than centred around the Dodge/Tritec supercharged unit which was just a bit rough diamond rather than unreliable (and it was very characterful once it has a supercharger on!) but they weren't necessarily that severe in their youth and a lot of them just got bad as they got older. The R56, however, which ran from 2007 to 2014 with the Peugeot co-developed 1.6 turbo that was also in the Peugeot 207 GTI (try find one of those now if you're an archaeologist) was a terribly unreliable engine and renowned for it. Also beset with timing chain issues. I think mine had four recalls on its chain. Also, in its old age it drank oil like a vehicular alcoholic - a one way trip to London in one go from Cheshire would require a litre of before I came back up. That was fairly "normal" usage as they got older. Models built after 2010/2011 had different componentry and they sorted a lot of it. But trust me, there was an outcry. But once a car is five or six years old, car manufacturers have an odd deafness if you're not in their extended warranty scheme!

But the 2014 on model, to be fair, I have found to be extremely solid. Although both of my F56s have been from brand new, although that can often be where you'll get problems and a two year old car has often had them sorted. The forums are littered with people who haven't had a good time with F56s, so there are problems but forums are a bit biased and can make problems look more common than they are as people tend to only be on them when they need help rather than to say what a great car they have! If I was putting my faith in an older motor now, I'd probably not just go Japanese for the first time, I'd probably only go Mazda.

But when a new Up GTI is leasable at the prices being advertised at the moment (post partial Brexit resolution), it seems madness not to go new and have all your problems covered by a manufacturer's warranty. Unless you really specifically want something special. This time I'm more excited about the money I'm going to save rather than necessarily what I'm getting - the latter is almost incidental! Within reason anyway, I'm still limiting myself to something from a five car choice - it's just normally I have my precise spec on one car known for about a year in advance. This time, I'm very "meh". If they did an Up GTI in beige with a brown tweed interior and it was cheaper I'd probably have it.

A Cooper is a lot slower than a Polo GTI, if you want performance parity you'll need to go Cooper S.

I test drove 4 MINI COOPER autos before i purchased my UP GTI last summer. I thought they drove very well, but depending on model, Classic or Exclusive they would have cost £3000 to £5000 more than my UP GTI.

Also i did not like the staff in MINI dealers who acted as if they were selling a Rolls or a Bentley, so stuck up. Infact i have dealt with staff who were more friendly when i had just been looking in the Bentley dealer in Mayfair London.

Thats not to say i would not buy a MINI next time, perhaps online so i would not have to see any sales staff.

 

[TEST DRIVER]

Most cars are pretty reliable and well-made these days - especially the ones of German/Japanese design or manufacture (including those not necessarily built in Germany or Japan). Ask your dads about cars from 40-50 years ago! Mind you, it is annoying if you a re stuck with an annoying-hard-find-problem or a huge bill!

Popular, and smaller cars, especially the relatively simple ones, are really not that expensive to own and run - there's not much point picking on a model (which may have spanned many model versions) such as a Fiesta or Mini or Up or whatever and making a general statement about comparative reliability - reliability is now good enough for it to not be a factor for most people's buying decisions, even if all the cars in posts above have "quirks".

I'm just happy I bought the one I did (Citigo) - it's saving me a ton of money and it's great to drive.

As for cosmetic changes for 2021 on the GTi, most are minor and can often be altered if needs be. Or lived with. Cosmetic fiddling is a sure sign a car is in its twilight, so I'm just glad you can still buy them...

There was an article in Autocar just after i bought my UP GTI. It spoke about how all cars are so much more reliable these days and buying a used car up to one year old makes so much sense. The car has lost a large chunk of money percentage wise, still has a good warranty and dealers are desperate to sell cars after the lockdown, so will be ready to offer good discounts.

Even though the article was printed after i bought my car, i found this to be the case.
I saved thousands on my 9 month old (10 month old by the time it was delivered ) UP GTI and did a great deal on a great car.

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

Most cars are pretty reliable and well-made these days - especially the ones of German/Japanese design or manufacture (including those not necessarily built in Germany or Japan). Ask your dads about cars from 40-50 years ago! Mind you, it is annoying if you a re stuck with an annoying-hard-find-problem or a huge bill!

Popular, and smaller cars, especially the relatively simple ones, are really not that expensive to own and run - there's not much point picking on a model (which may have spanned many model versions) such as a Fiesta or Mini or Up or whatever and making a general statement about comparative reliability - reliability is now good enough for it to not be a factor for most people's buying decisions, even if all the cars in posts above have "quirks".

I'm just happy I bought the one I did (Citigo) - it's saving me a ton of money and it's great to drive.

As for cosmetic changes for 2021 on the GTi, most are minor and can often be altered if needs be. Or lived with. Cosmetic fiddling is a sure sign a car is in its twilight, so I'm just glad you can still buy them...

Cars are better made, and their construction and ability to resist the threat of dissolving under a light shower are sorted but from a mechanical standpoint, cars that get worthless pretty quickly on the other side of the graph have become more expensive to repair when you do get an issue. £1,800 for a clutch for example, which isn't even a problem as it's a wearable part.

As someone who has owned all 3 eras of BMW MINI and had good and bad ones, you cannot lump them in with the Up. The Up was designed as a cheap car to be spread across three marques, whereas the MINI shaped the premium small car cash-cow segment where everything was an option. My current Cooper S had a list price of £28,500 which is double that of a first edition Up GTI. They are complex cars with powerplants derived from those in the BMW 328 of the recently deceased generation, and I have been very specific about the eras of the cars I'm talking about.

As such, someone who buys my MINI at 4 years old can often be stung with horrendous engine and mechanical bills. An entry level Up or Mii might have nice running and repair costs, but I assure you - a MINI does not.

And as for German designed cars. I don't think a lot of them are mechanically anything to write home about even when their built in Germany. Mercs over the last 5 years, for example. Then you have cars built in the depths of Eastern Europe under French designs sporting Japanese badges which are predictably built like paper planes.

All the grease monkeys I know, even those in the first flush of youth, seem to be of the opinion that the oily bits of cars are made pretty shonkily next to some of the better stuff from 30 years ago, almost with built-in obsolescence.

I would still rather go new than old as cars have become fairly disposable, but I would tred very carefully when picking anything older that was anything more than a budget car when new - or something, such as an MX-5, that has a reputation for being not only relatively well built when new, but also cheap to fix.

I love the Mk 8 Fiesta ST, but I don't think I'd like to run one at five years old, next to a Mk 7 one with its fairly rudimentary mechanicals. But don't get me wrong, I prefer the newer car in every sense, and I'll only ever be running it from new - but you'll get the smelly end of stick at some point.

I had this conversation with someone at my work who bought a used E-class two years ago from a Merc dealer. I told him at the time. He's just had a £5,200 repair bill on a car probably not worth £14,000. I didn't want to say I told him so, obviously

But I did.

For him, there'll be 10 people who have a trouble-free experience in the same situation. But just don't be blind to the potential. I was. On balance, it's still probably cheaper but you'll just have the odd bump along the way, and sometimes they are quite painful. I just don't want them, so I'm prepared to pay more but always know what I'm paying. I'm also gradually reducing what I'm looking at buying, so reducing my costs that way - but that's just becoming an old fart, I suppose. Horses for courses, as they say at the French lasagne company.

 

[freemansteve]

Yep, those big luxo-barges are not for me!
Complexity is a killer.

At the other extreme, I have a friend with a 40 year old Land Rover (and other cars) who reckons even my Citigo will need to be recycled in 5-10 years time, purely because fixing it will be too costly to be worth the trouble. Very little you can't do yourself on an LR, but I do note that no weekend seems to pass without it needing time and/or money ... It may be very "durable" but it is definitely not "reliable", and that is an interesting difference.

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

I test drove 4 MINI COOPER autos before i purchased my UP GTI last summer. I thought they drove very well, but depending on model, Classic or Exclusive they would have cost £3000 to £5000 more than my UP GTI.

Also i did not like the staff in MINI dealers who acted as if they were selling a Rolls or a Bentley, so stuck up. Infact i have dealt with staff who were more friendly when i had just been looking in the Bentley dealer in Mayfair London.

Thats not to say i would not buy a MINI next time, perhaps online so i would not have to see any sales staff.

Car salesman is just the longform wording of what I like to call scum. Regardless of the marque. They're just an unfortunate consequence of a car purchase. I always like to go in having done my homework and ask them lots of questions I already know the answer to and see if they lie or not, and then correct them when we've sat down afterwards. They tend to behave a bit better the second time when they think you're just laying traps for them. I think good people go in there and within weeks they've been through the induction ceremony, and then they become part of the machine! I actually enjoy it these days. As long as you remember you're the one with all the power in any of your dealings with them and exercise that leverage accordingly, you can't go wrong. Ultimately, they dance to your tune or you buy from somewhere else or you buy something else.

 

[Mr Cholmondley-Warner]

Yep, those big luxo-barges are not for me!
Complexity is a killer.

At the other extreme, I have a friend with a 40 year old Land Rover (and other cars) who reckons even my Citigo will need to be recycled in 5-10 years time, purely because fixing it will be too costly to be worth the trouble. Very little you can't do yourself on an LR, but I do note that no weekend seems to pass without it needing time and/or money ... It may be very "durable" but it is definitely not "reliable", and that is an interesting difference.

There's that old saying isn't there: If you want to drive to the middle of the jungle, take a Land Rover - if you want to get home again, take a Toyota Land Cruiser". Brand new Land Rovers and Range Rovers have been, for as long as I've been interested, which will be the 2002 L322 model an absolute joke in terms of reliability and continue to be today. Yet the faithful and new converts don't seem to mind.

It's an odd state of affairs, but in my old R53 Cooper S (although it was only three years old at the time and I had gone to it from a new BMW 535d with 282bhp) which randomly had door handles and indicator stalks pinging off in all directions I would forgive it anything because it had something less tangible that transcended all the obvious failings.

That car taught me that I could spend far less on a car than I had been and still enjoy it, and I think because I was dreading it, it became more than the sum of its parts. Mind you it was more than the sum of its parts as it had to have a lot of replacement parts. But it meant something to me. I'm much more jaded and objective now. Objectionable even. I don't care any more. I just want something that is immense fun to throw at a sweeping B-road in the general direction of the horizon, how much it's going to cost me until I hand it back the day before the warranty expires, and replace it with something else. I don't want a meaningful relationship with it. We'll have some good times, but we both know it's not going to end well.

I was going to say I have no soul, but I just realised I've anthropomorphised a car in saying how little it means to me!

Or maybe it's an illustration of how little humans matter to me! Whereas cars used to be much more important than people to me, now they're just the same!

 

[freemansteve]

Cars are often fun and you can anthropomorphise about them a bit, it's shared fun after all (and my wife balks at carrying me at crazy speeds on tarmac, for some reason; maybe the pedals dig in?) - until they [the cars] catch the scent of your wallet....

I imagine 40 y.o. LRs are way less complicated than ones from 2002, and on that basis, my friend's wallet will be in comparatively good shape. Although, maybe not his knuckles....